Curse

Stolen Souls · Aug 22, 2008, 12:07 PM // 12:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kook~NBK~

Thanks for fixing Devona, she seems to behaving much more rationally. HOWEVER: Your other changes to MMs and Heroes/hemchmen with support type builds makes me want to cry!

I tested out Olias as MM, and if there were no living enemies nearby, he wouldn't raise minions when corpses were available. HORRIBLE CHANGE!! That's just one symptom of the overall problem, though. It seems that the proximity of ememies determines whether H/H's use skills or not. This is a BAD THING, and here's some proof:
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a2...kNBK/gw400.jpg
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a2...kNBK/gw401.jpg
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a2...kNBK/gw402.jpg

Reverting H/H to the way they were before the update that caused all this ado would have been a much better solution!

lol...

I'm beginning to wonder if they can do anything right. Seriously...

Aussie Boy · Aug 22, 2008, 12:46 PM // 12:46

Yeah just take the AI back to what it was before any updates as each "Fix" breaks em even more.

Jae Onasi · Aug 22, 2008, 12:55 PM // 12:55

Let me first say that I think the devs were trying to fix some AI issues, and I appreciate that effort. I'm sure when some of these other issues are addressed, the hero AI should be even better than before.

I played last night with a few people and here's some of the things we found that were problematic, however.
a. we had to manually cast Blood of the Master for Olias when out of combat.
b. as noted before, he won't raise minions outside of combat--we had to manually cast those skills as well. They also are not using death nova or jagged bones properly, either, which makes minion bombers useless.
c. Monks won't resurrect people outside of combat. We stood around waiting for Tahlkora to res one of my heroes after combat was done. He had enough energy, but we had to manually cast the res skill to get the hero back up.
d. Casters will start to cast and then abort the spells, using up their energy pool fruitlessly, especially the monks.
e. Casters are not maintaining enchantments, e.g. we noticed Vekk was not maintaining earth attunement like he used to, so he ran out of energy quickly.
f. Tanks don't retreat when players retreat like they used to, so flagging is required to move them.
g. Heroes won't attack when they're in aggro range of monsters unless you're also in aggro range unless you flag forward and manually target. This makes it harder to engage if you're a ranger in longbow range and are a survivor trying to stay out of harm's way.

h. H/H are not activating junundu wail or junundu feast outside of combat--I had to manually activate those skills on the heroes and just wait for the henchies to heal up before going to the next battle. This slowed things down quite a bit.

Hopefully that's some useful specifics to work with.

Shadowlance. · Aug 22, 2008, 01:06 PM // 13:06

I agree this AI update is not good - I really hope they undo it. I'm seeing the same thing with my MM heroes. Just for testing I took them into an area where there would be plenty of corpses just to watch how they would use their skills without my micro-management. Both during combat and after combat we'd stand there right next to multiple exploitable corpses and the heroes would just sit there. They would even re-cast Dark Bond while having zero minions while an exploitable corpse was sitting right next to them. Also I had complained earlier that the AI was a bit too aggressive and the warrior hench (like Talon Silverwing) had rushed ahead too often. I'd gladly take that old behavior back though. The new behavior seems much too passive. I'd often stand just outside aggro range and then call a target so my warrior hench could run in and draw first aggro. Now they no longer do this. Even when I call a target they often won't attack until I actually make the first attack.

Kushiels_Scion · Aug 22, 2008, 02:58 PM // 14:58

There is absolutely no excuse as to why this stuff hasn't been fixed sooner. NONE at all. Doesn't Anet look at guru and the problems that a massive amount of people are having?

I mean the AI has been TERRIBLY screwy for TWO weeks already, and it took them until yesterday to even add in some updates to try to fix it. What is it going to take, another 2 weeks or a month for them to FINALLY take the easy route and put hero's back the way they were before August 7th update. I mean, they through TOO much AI changes at once at the heroes which screwed them up. There is no common sense in doing what they did. When it comes to artificial intelligence you would think that people would add in updates and changes SLOWLY to more clearly see how it effects what is going on, and I don't know TEST it themselves on a separate server to see how it works?

I am tired of having to wait around for REAL people to do things when I don't have the time to waste, because I can't use my heroes for next to anything any more without it taking twice as long.... This needs fixed, not tomorrow, not next week but NOW..

As for someone above who said that MMs are overpowered.. WTH? MMs no way overpowered. They do little damage without Barbs from curses on an enemy, which in essence would make one say the SS builds are overpowered. By no means are any of them if I still have trouble getting through destructions depths in hard mode (though I blame most of that on the AI changes because heroes won't do what was expected of them to do...)
apparently the hero MMs are just as useless now as a HUMAN MM. And to those who MM no offense, by hero's have always (before these updates) been the best MMs around. Because all that they "see" are their minions pretty much and can easily find their minions to put jagged and death nova on them. A human person has to SEARCh for the minions because of some stupid way holding alt down doesn't light them up. Now that hero MMs have gone stupid might aswell say goodbye to MM for good now really until its fixed... cause all the hero does is provide a burden... Can't imagine how frustrated people that heal must be having to micromanage hero's while also having to heal...

upier · Aug 22, 2008, 03:14 PM // 15:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kushiels_Scion

As for someone above who said that MMs are overpowered.. WTH? MMs no way overpowered.

That would be me.
"The wall" is beyond overpowered with the moronic monster AI.

Kook~NBK~ · Aug 22, 2008, 03:25 PM // 15:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aussie Boy

Yeah just take the AI back to what it was before any updates as each "Fix" breaks em even more.

This gets my vote!

Chico · Aug 22, 2008, 03:26 PM // 15:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Regina Buenaobra

The devs have been keeping an eye on the threads and all your comments and descriptions about overly aggressive Henchmen; they have been testing and evaluating some changes. Depending on the results, those changes may go live in an update this week.

"overly aggressive Henchmen;"
Don't you mean: Broken and aggro happy henchies.

"they have been testing"
It looks like the 'testing' has been done by us on this release, not by the devs or qa's before anything got released. If it was tested and the problems were spotted (really anyone can tell things are broken) then the updates shouldn't have been released. I bet a lot of people would be happy if instead of this 'update' the hero/hench AI would have been rolled back.

If the update is overall more broken than before (no Rez? no minion healing?) do not release it. If the tests, assuming you do test stuff, didn't show anything being broken then the tests you're running internally is what is broken.

Kityn · Aug 22, 2008, 03:40 PM // 15:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jae Onasi

Let me first say that I think the devs were trying to fix some AI issues, and I appreciate that effort. I'm sure when some of these other issues are addressed, the hero AI should be even better than before.

I played last night with a few people and here's some of the things we found that were problematic, however.
a. we had to manually cast Blood of the Master for Olias when out of combat.
b. as noted before, he won't raise minions outside of combat--we had to manually cast those skills as well. They also are not using death nova or jagged bones properly, either, which makes minion bombers useless.
c. Monks won't resurrect people outside of combat. We stood around waiting for Tahlkora to res one of my heroes after combat was done. He had enough energy, but we had to manually cast the res skill to get the hero back up.
d. Casters will start to cast and then abort the spells, using up their energy pool fruitlessly, especially the monks.
e. Casters are not maintaining enchantments, e.g. we noticed Vekk was not maintaining earth attunement like he used to, so he ran out of energy quickly.
f. Tanks don't retreat when players retreat like they used to, so flagging is required to move them.
g. Heroes won't attack when they're in aggro range of monsters unless you're also in aggro range unless you flag forward and manually target. This makes it harder to engage if you're a ranger in longbow range and are a survivor trying to stay out of harm's way.

h. H/H are not activating junundu wail or junundu feast outside of combat--I had to manually activate those skills on the heroes and just wait for the henchies to heal up before going to the next battle. This slowed things down quite a bit.

Hopefully that's some useful specifics to work with.

I have noticed most of these as well. I have also noticed while in Junundu form some of the caster heroes would move within melee range instead of hitting from afar.

sindex · Aug 22, 2008, 04:23 PM // 16:23

Yeah, there are some problems with the AI concerning the support casters. However, it’s nice to know that certain things are getting changed from their terrible, chaotic, and bizarre behavior.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

That would be me.
"The wall" is beyond overpowered with the moronic monster AI.

I guess that’s your opinion. Nevertheless, with that “moronic monster AI,” comes with the special “overpowered” monster skills, overabundance of health at that particular level, unlimited energy cap, higher than normal attribute levels, other MM monsters usually have the upper hand, and even a few horrid environmental effects to benefit from. On the MM’s side, you have Soul Reaping which was nerfed into the ground, pet’s no longer leave exploitable corpses, minions lack common AI sense, and the hero AI has to be micro-managed at times. I also see where some of the high-end areas completely and utterly kill the need for the MM’s ability. So the MM’s are overpowered, eh? Don’t make me laugh.

AsyaMordina · Aug 22, 2008, 05:54 PM // 17:54

>Casters will start to cast and then abort the spells, using up their energy pool fruitlessly, especially the monks.

Yes, please fix.

Nightow · Aug 22, 2008, 06:18 PM // 18:18

I had to give Oggy (my smiter for Rt600/Smite) the pink slip today.

Whenever I would ask him to cast a signet or two, well he would get all befuddled and signet spam 'til the cows came home. Even if I was standing right next to him, he'd still cast it and stop 1/3rd way through.

Wonder if Dwarves get alzheimer's..?

upier · Aug 22, 2008, 06:47 PM // 18:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by sindex

I guess that’s your opinion. Nevertheless, with that “moronic monster AI,” comes with the special “overpowered” monster skills, overabundance of health at that particular level, unlimited energy cap, higher than normal attribute levels, other MM monsters usually have the upper hand, and even a few horrid environmental effects to benefit from. On the MM’s side, you have Soul Reaping which was nerfed into the ground, pet’s no longer leave exploitable corpses, minions lack common AI sense, and the hero AI has to be micro-managed at times. I also see where some of the high-end areas completely and utterly kill the need for the MM’s ability. So the MM’s are overpowered, eh? Don’t make me laugh.

I don't want to drag this off - so I'll just say that you are wrong on multiple counts.
Plus you very nicely explained why minions work so insanely well - which means my work is done.

Now back to our regular program that is bitching about H/H.

Sol Faithman · Aug 22, 2008, 08:32 PM // 20:32

Have to agree with the comments in post 245 - MM have gone stupid beyond belief. I just had Olias repeatedly stand doing absolutely nothing after killing mobs, refusing to raise any minions until I manually told him too

Update FTL

Kushiels_Scion · Aug 22, 2008, 08:39 PM // 20:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by sindex

Yeah, there are some problems with the AI concerning the support casters. However, it’s nice to know that certain things are getting changed from their terrible, chaotic, and bizarre behavior.

I guess that’s your opinion. Nevertheless, with that “moronic monster AI,” comes with the special “overpowered” monster skills, overabundance of health at that particular level, unlimited energy cap, higher than normal attribute levels, other MM monsters usually have the upper hand, and even a few horrid environmental effects to benefit from. On the MM’s side, you have Soul Reaping which was nerfed into the ground, pet’s no longer leave exploitable corpses, minions lack common AI sense, and the hero AI has to be micro-managed at times. I also see where some of the high-end areas completely and utterly kill the need for the MM’s ability. So the MM’s are overpowered, eh? Don’t make me laugh.

You put that better than i could have, here here. Saying MMs are overpowered is a joke. Nuke or Holy damage or conditions = bye bye minions.

sindex · Aug 22, 2008, 08:49 PM // 20:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

I don't want to drag this off - so I'll just say that you are wrong on multiple counts.
Plus you very nicely explained why minions work so insanely well - which means my work is done.

Now back to our regular program that is bitching about H/H.

Nice to see you live in a small world then. You might as well say get rid of Nukers because they do AoE damage and because there so overpowered by doing so. Since you did not counter my argument and just came off with the typical "your wrong," answer then that makes me right. In addition, to the other points of my argument: do monster within GW have an automatic de-gen of health? Do the minions come with any prior skill (like any healing or damage abilities) set/bar except for what the MM puts on them? The answer should be no of course.

As for the MM AI I hope they do eventually fix it. It is pretty bad that you have to manually train your Hero to heal it’s own minions.

EDIT:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Update - Friday, August 22, 2008

Bug Fix
Fixed a bug that caused Heroes outside of combat to not use skills with a long casting time.

It looks like they fixed the AI again. The MM’s are healing their minions so I don’t see any problems yet. If anyone finds anything, please don’t hesitate to post though.

Kushiels_Scion · Aug 22, 2008, 11:21 PM // 23:21

No real problems with the MMs, but they do seem to hang back trying to make minions while I am trying to move along, but thats what they did even before the update. My ss still is refused to cast when he is flagged on the edge of range. Before if he wasn't close enough (or even nukers took) they would move up slightly from where flagged to cast their spells, now they refuse to do so... ugh.. I still wish they would hurry up and just revert heroes back instead just fixing bug after bug that they caused in the first place by implementing so many changes to the AIs at once.

Nanood · Aug 22, 2008, 11:28 PM // 23:28

Well if it's still mad then at least nothing has changed.. When Olias decides to run halfway accross the radar to engage a target I called then gets pwned I say to him.. That's a naughty Olias. You shall now suffer DP.

I can understand Warriors aggression and running after targets and being pig headed but I would think a caster would be much more likely to stay with the leader rather than break out on there own. That has been my biggest problem with the heroes of late.

Obey The Cat · Aug 22, 2008, 11:34 PM // 23:34

this RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing patch is not fixing all. heroes still dont cast divine boon out of combat.

oh and would be nice to see heroes casting peace and harmony on other team mates too.

Nightow · Aug 23, 2008, 12:06 AM // 00:06

Gotta ask, do they still signet spam? >_>